A few days back, my 10 yr old daughter had found some money. She didn't know if the money was hers or not. She had found it in an old purse my daughters' share. She wondered whether the money was hers or one of her sisters.... what to do, what to do..... keep it ... or not.....
She came to me and explained her situation. I listened and told her to pray about it. I told her if the money wasn't truly hers and she "knew" it, then she would most likely have little joy in spending it! I told her to ask God and wait for an answer. That seemed to appease her and she did just that. A few minutes later she came downstairs and said she was going to "keep it" and upon asking her if God had told her to do that, she said "well, no.... but I sure feel like it!" I encouraged her to let the Lord lead her on this one. For the next few hours she went back forth wondering if she should keep the money or not... one second she "felt" she should ... the next minute she didn't.... the result: confusion!
She also talked to my husband about it. ( he is a practicing LDS) He encouraged her to pray about it too.... but instead of telling her to wait for God to answer, he told her to see how she "feels about" it after praying. If she feels "good" about keeping it, then she should. If she doesn't "feel good" about it then she shouldn't. My daughter , told her daddy that it doesn't work that way. She shared w/ him her struggle to give this issue to God and *not* rely on her feelings.. because her feelings were "selfish" and wanting to keep the money, regardless of "whose" it was. Her daddy didn't agree and a discussion ensued. She got out her Bible and shared the following verse with her daddy:
" The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer. 17:9
My daughter then proceeded to tell her daddy that she can't trust her heart, because her heart is selfish and wants to keep the money regardless of what God would want her to do.
My husband and I later discussed the situation. He is a practicing LDS and believes that thru the promptings of the Holy Spirit ( thru feelings given to the heart) a person is able to know what to do in a given situation. That means, if a person feels peace and good about something then they can know that God is approving of that. I explained to him, that the bible does not teach such a thing, but rather teaches us that our heart is "deceitful" and desperately wicked. How can we trust our hearts in making choices, when our heart can deceive us? Our hearts naturally, apart from God's redeeming grace, is described as "deceitful". Therefore man can not trust his own heart solely, but must leave all to God.
Because my heart feels "good" about something then that means God is giving me the go ahead? How can I be sure my heart isn't being selfish? Lots of times I may feel "good" something.. but that doesn't mean God views it that way.
As a Christian, I make sure to check what God has to say about things before I make a decision. I check my views with what God has revealed, and if my views are not in harmony with God's revealed Word, then I can be *sure* that I have been deceived.
" The hearts of men, moreover are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live and afterward they join the dead." Ecc 9:3 NIV
The Lord speaking of the children of Isreal whom He had brought out of Egypt:
" But they did not listen or pay attention, instead they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts." Jer. 11:8
When I was an LDS missionary, I taught those who were investigating the LDS faith to "pray about" the things I was teaching them. I told them that if they prayed with a sincere heart, with real intent , the Holy Ghost would manifest the truth of what I was teaching them. ( Moroni 10:3-5) When I returned to their homes, one of the first things I would ask them was "if they had prayed" and if they had, how had they "felt" while they prayed and after they prayed.
We used the passage from Galatians 5:22-23, as a gauge to teach those investigating Mormonism that if they felt "peace, love, joy, etc" they were receiving an answer from the Holy Ghost telling them that the things I was teaching were true. They had received a "testimony" . I encouraged investigators to focus on their "feelings".... did they feel peace upon praying? Did they feel any physical manifestations like a warm heart or did they begin to cry and get emotional? All of these manifestations were taught to be from the Holy Ghost. Interestingly I never taught those investigating to compare the teachings of Mormonism with the Bible and it's teachings . I never once told those whom I taught to "test" out the Mormon's claims and research out the back round of it's church, history, leaders, etc. No, most definitely the focus was on the "feelings" people were experiencing.
The same rules are used today by many LDS for receiving answers to prayers. If they feel peace,and good about something, then that is a "yes" answer. That was what my husband was trying to tell my daughter about her issue with the money she had found. If she felt "good" about it, then that was the Holy Ghost confirming to her that she should keep it.
My concern with that pattern is 1. it's not biblical. 2. it opens one up for being emotionally driven instead of being driven by solid truth and 3. it's leads to confusion
For LDS readers , you may ask "how so"?
1. It's not biblical: No where in the Bible does the Lord tell us to use our feelings as a guide to determine truth, or find answers to questions. On the contrary we are told to "trust the Lord with all our hearts"..... Proverbs 3:5-6 and "lean not unto our own understanding. Be not wise in thine own eyes and depart from evil." We are being warned in this passage to trust GOD , not our own understanding, our own hearts. We are not to be "wise" in our own eyes. Why? Because we are naturally interested in our own selfish ways! As believers, we are to trust GOD, not ourselves. Not our hearts, not our feelings but God.
2. It opens one up for being emotionally driven: When we focus too much on our feelings... we can become immune to what God has already revealed and spoken. For example, if God says we are not to fornicate or commit adultery, it doesn't matter how much I "feel like" I may be in love with another person. I am a married woman. Regardless of my feelings, I am to not look at another man, for to do so would be to commit adultery. Not even to peek at a man to lust after. God's word is pretty clear. I don't need to "pray" about such a thing or focus on my "feelings" . Focusing on feelings has led many many a soul into adulterous relationships. Our feelings are simply not safe enough to trust. We need God's wisdom.
3. It leads to confusion: Simply put our God is not a God of confusion. He does not work in confusing ways. If we are confused, we can now for a surety God is not in it. If we trust our feelings for answers, we may find ourselves confused. In all honesty, especially for women, our feelings are constantly changing! Our feelings are effected by how much we sleep, eat, the weather, stresses in life, etc. They can change from one hour to the next... how can we possibly trust our heart to lead us? We can't. God is to lead us. We are to trust in God, not our feelings.
Recently a good friend of mine, who was born and raised LDS mentioned to me , after attending my church for prayer meeting, that she had felt the "tingling up the back , goosebumps, and a burning in the heart" while at the prayer meeting .... according to her LDS beliefs, she then could conclude that "my church" was the correct church to attend, right? She sincerely wanted to know what I thought. I told her that the "feelings" she experienced at prayer meeting, were simply that... "feelings". Emotional expressions and responses to the heartfelt prayers she heard offered up. They were not to be taken as any manifestation from the Holy Ghost. They were the tender feelings of her heart, but not to be equated with "truth" .
Many LDS stay LDS because of their "testimonies". They have felt the goosebumps, chills, and a warm fuzzy feeling in the heart. They sincerely believe this is how God reveals truth to them. As sincere as they may be, and I don't deny in any way that they experience these feelings, I would point out that they are simply that... "feelings" nothing more and nothing less. My concern is that many souls are basing truth on feelings, instead of God's Word.
So how does one know truth? How can one know what God's will is for you? May I share with you a passage from the book of John, these are red letter verses:
" If ye continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed. And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
Jesus identifies the true disciples as those who believe in Him, and continue in His word, unlike the Jews who did not believe, disciples will be freed from sin by the truth. ( Jesus it the TRUTH) They will not be sinless , but blameless -- free from the power and eternal effects of sin ( death & hell).
We can know God's will for us , by reading what He has said and spoken in His revealed word , the Bible. I am constantly amazed at how much ground God has covered! I have yet to face a problem that has not already been dealt about and written about in the Bible!! When I have a problem, I turn to the Lord and seek for answers in His Word. I also wait for God to open doors and close doors. That is, if something is not for me, God will close the door. Literally. We must ask according to His will.
Never, am I told to rely on my heart or my feelings. This is precisely what my daughter my husband that day with her money issue. The heart is a deceptive thing. To trust our hearts, we could be led to sin. We should seek out God's will, continue in His Word, and trust in Him with all our hearts. My 10 yr old daughter has also learned to trust God, not her heart. God is growing her in HIS Word and revealing Himself to her daily as she studies His Word. As tempting as it may be, our hearts can not be trusted. We need God's wisdom, guidance and direction in our lives if we hope to navigate our lives. I am so grateful God is teaching my 10 yr old daughter that as well as me!
God bless,
gloria
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What an excellent post!
ReplyDeleteKudos to you and your daughter for realizing that our hearts cannot be trusted.
Feelings are great (the Lord has given us feelings after all).
But they cannot be trusted. We are tainted by sin, and because of the Old Adam/Eve that still resides in us, there is an aspect of evil to our hearts.
Not only that, St. Paul reminds us that the devil can come all "dressed up as an angel of light."
The devil can certainly give us feelings that make us believe we are doing the right thing, when it is actually evil. (the LDS, I believe are victims of that).
You have done a fine job with your children. I will pray the Lord will someday remove the scales from your husband's eyes.
Thanks steve martin for leaving your comments and for taking time to share your thoughts. I appreciate your prayers for my husband. He has had a hard time with the many changes we have gone thru as a family, but is handling things pretty well, considering. Thanks for your prayers. God is working.
ReplyDeleteGod bless,
gloria
"God is working."
ReplyDeleteAmen. We should never lose sight of that fact.
As I read your post and comments I will agree with you that standing alone without God our hearts and thoughts are not to be trusted.
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of a great sermon I heard this morning on the radio on the way to church. I'm not sure the preachers name or denomonation, but I know he was Evangalical.
He discussed how we are like a sundial and without light we don't work. However, when we are in the light...God's light. We do work.
The question then is how do we know if we are in the light? I think that both you and your husband are right.
You quote the scripture to trust in God's word and also that you'll know truth and the truth will set you free.
How does one know that scripture is truth? How does one recognize this? It is through God's Holy Spirit. How does one recognize the Holy Spirit? Through feelings, thoughts, and impressions. When the Holy Spirit speaks to us it is in a way different than our own made up desires.
Your husband is right in that we should trust the Holy Spirit and that we feel the Holy Spirit. You are right in that we feel the Holy Spirit by reading and abiding in God's word.
By doing this we become functioning "sundials" and we are in the light.
One more comment.
ReplyDeleteYou mention you had a friend come to your prayer meeting and they felt "warm feelings", etc. and that it couldn't be the Holy Spirit.
I completely disagree with you on this. God gave us feelings for a reason. God speaks to us and confirms truth to us through both reason and feelings. The Bible talks about this but I don't want to get into a Bible bash here throwing scriptures back and forth.
I too have felt the Holy Spirit at other Christian churches and know that God speaks to all of us who are sincere and who open our hearts. Saying that God doesn't speak to us through the Holy Spirit touching our hearts is denying that we have a personal relationship with God, in my opinion.
The trick is learning how to discern between your own desires and God's desires.
You are right in that we shouldn't trust our own feelings, but God will clearly speak to us through feelings, thoughts, and other distinct confirmations if we open our hearts and allow it.
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that your heart is not deceiving you? Let's forget about the LDS for a minute. There are hundreds of Christian denominations that claim to worship the Bible. How does one settle points of doctrine? For example, I don't know what religion you've converted to, but let's say you were in a group with a Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist, Born-Again, Anglican, Branch-Davidian, and Presbyterian. All claim to follow the Bible. How do you decide which group has the "pure" heart? Are all the others hearts "full of evil and there is madness in their hearts"?
I just did a post on the Documentary Hypothesis. (Note there are 2 pages of comments--you may want to read the first page, because unfortunately we got sidetracked on page 2 of the comments.) Are you familiar with it? What do you think of it?
Gloria~ I popped over from the Lockwoods blog. I love your posts. Sooo true!! I was just talking with a friend about trusting feelings over what God says. Being a woman, as I am :-) I am soo emotional and it's easy to get sidetracked and rely on my "feelings" and completely block out God's Holy Word! What a great reminder~
ReplyDelete~Mama to 9~ Cinnamon
Dear Cinnamon ~~
ReplyDeleteThank you for stopping by and for sharing your thoughts here. I was so encouraged by the Lockwood's blog!! Wow, what a blessing! I have such a heart for missions -- I can hardly stand it, but right now this will have to do to quench my desire to share the good news with the lost!
You are so right, being women, we can so easily be led astray by our feelings. They truly go up and down depending on the time, day, hormones, etc.
So important to check with God's word as the final say on all things.
Again, thanks and I hope to hear from you again,
Gloria
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteI have posted a few comments on this and other blogs you've posted at, and I notice that you always ignore me. Is there a reason for this? Have I offended you? If so, I apologize. Could you address some of my thoughts above?
Dear Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteI am sorry. I can't always keep up with the comments left here. I do my best to respond. Sorry if it's not as timely as you may wish. Please read my blog left today and you may catch a glimpse as to why.
Thanks and I'll try to get back to your other comment sometime today.
Kind regards,
gloria
Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking time to post and share. I appreciate the time you took to read here and as I said, I am sorry I don't always respond quickly.
You asked me above, "what" religion I have converted to. With all due respect, I boldly state that I have *not* converted to any religion or denomination. I have no creeds but Christ and the Bible is my authority. You may wish to go back and read how the Lord drew me to Him and how I came to the point of surrendering to the King. I have been "born again" not converted to another religion.
I fellowship with a body of believers in a non denominational church. That is this church does not claim to be the only true body of believers out there. There are millions of members of the body of Christ. The Bible tells us that the church = the body of christ.The body of christ = the individual members that make up that body.
I was born again, and filled by the Holy Spirit. Feel free to read my testimony on previous posts found in the archives.
You asked me "how" do I decide which denomination or Church is the "true one". I would say this to your question. Jesus did not preach a denomination or religion. He preached Himself as the way the truth and the life. He told us we must be born again to see the Kingdom of God. John 3:3 He did not tell us to join a "church" but to come to Him into a personal relationship with Him.
Denominations have nothing to do with it.
There are many churches out there. There are many Christians -- but not all Christians are "born again" and spirit filled. Within the various christian churches out there, there will be born again believers in them. All of these people make up the "church" or body of Christ.
Christians do not place their trust in the Church they attend but in the blood of Jesus.
They may choose to attend a baptist church, but they know it's Jesus that saves not their church membership.
I hope this helps you to understand.
Kind regards,
gloria
ps. I have not read your documentary hypothesis. In all honesty, my time is precious and my free time is usually spent here on my blog or reading God's word. I do occasionaly post on other's blogs, but even then I find my time limited.
At the very least, the existence of multiple Christian denominations indicates that the Bible is open to multiple human interpretations, and we have very little reason to be confident that our own personal interpretation is definitely the correct one.
ReplyDeleteNot if you're going by the Bible alone anyway.
Hi,Seth. I appreciate your remarks. Thanks for taking time to share. I agree with you, that the existence of multiple christian churches does lead us to believe that there is a "reason" for this, and I personally believe it's due to difference in opinions and interpretations. As my wise pastor often says " not all divisions are bad and not all unity is good". With that said, I will say that the majority of christian faiths/churches do agree on the "majors". ( who the person of Christ is, salvation by Christ thru grace alone, etc. They may disagree on the minors, but they agree on major tenets of the Christian faith.
ReplyDeleteKind regards,
gloria
Some Christians believe that we have free will in the sense that we are actually capable of choosing other than what we actually end up choosing.
ReplyDeleteThey state that God simply plans ahead perfectly for all contingencies.
Other Christians believe that an omniscient God would have to know exactly what we are going to do from the beginning and therefore human freedom means something different. They state that human freedom simply means that you choose what you want. It doesn't matter to them that God programmed those desires into the human being from the beginning, as long as you are allowed to choose what you want to choose, you are free.
That's not a "minor" or "unimportant" disagreement.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI hear what you are saying. I am neither a Calvinists or Armenian. I stand some where in the middle. :)
I know Christians on both side of that issue. But both will agree hands down " Jesus is the way the, the truth and the life". They would both agree that salvation comes thru the shed blood of Jesus Christ .. thru His grace. They would be say that Jesus is the only way.
To me that is "major". Especially in a world where so many cry out "here our church is the way or you can only receive eternal life thru our church,etc." The LDS are certainly not the only ones to claim "one true church" or "one true way". There are others who say the same.
I also think you may agree with me that there is diversity of beliefs in the LDS faith as well. The more I mingle online with the LDS the more I realize how very diverse their beliefs are.
Frankly the diversity of beliefs doesn't bother me, as long as we can agree on the major tenets of the Christian faith. Meaning the means of salvation ( solely thru Christ) and the beliefs on the person of who God is.
These are the "majors" for me, at least. :)
Thanks for sharing with us all,
Gloria
Well, I would say the issue of human free will has quite a bit to do with how Jesus is "the way, the truth and the light." It certainly makes a big difference in how you interact with him.
ReplyDeleteGloria, thanks for responding. I feel like I understand you a little better now, and you certainly are a busy woman!
ReplyDeleteBut once again, if our hearts can't be trusted, how can you know your interpretation of Jesus words in the Bible can be trusted? How do you know you have not been deceived? Why is your middle way between Calvinism and Armenianism the correct path? How do you know that your "major" is correct? I know you say that you rely on the Bible, but with all the denominations out there, how can you claim that your interpretation is reliable?
I know you're busy, but I'd love to have you stop by my blog and tell me what you think of the Documentary Hypothesis. It deals with how Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers came to us, and I was curious if you had studied how the Bible came into existence.
ReplyDeleteMormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteHi. Thanks for stopping by my blog and for sharing. Yes, I have read and studied how the bible was put together -- absolutely amazing!!! When I realized how the Bible was not the mistranslated book I had been taught it was as a mormon, I was floored!!!
On a side note - have you read how the book of mormon was put together? Why would Joseph have needed a peep stone/seer stone or urim and thummin to translate? Can't God just inpsire a person thru His Holy Spirit?
Kind regards,
gloria
Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteYou may find the site www.irr.org interesting to read up on "how" Joseph Smith translated the plates. Very interesting stuff.
Kind regards,
gloria
Yes Gloria.
ReplyDeleteGod is spirit.
And so are you.
And so am I.
Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteYou asked "how" I know "my interpretation" of the bible is correct.....
Well I will say this. There is nothing to interpret. It's pretty strait forward if you ask me.
For example: When the bible states God is a Spirit, John 4:24 what is there to interpret? He is not a man with flesh and bones. A Spirit is a Spirit - it doesn't have flesh and bones.
Simple and strait forward.
When the Bible states:
" I am the way, the truth and the life, and no man can come to the father but by me" . John 14:6
Pretty simple -- what is there to interpret? JESUS IS THE WAY. The end. He is the way, not a church , a denomination, a membership......
Jesus is the way.
I find the bible very easy to understand. One doesn't need to interpret it.
The trouble people have is when they begin to change the Bible -- like Joseph Smith did. He changed verses in the bible, and trouble ensued as a result. Confusion is not of God.
Joseph Smith was not walking with God or he would have never been confused to begin with. The bible tells us that God does not give us confusion or fear.
Kind regards,
gloria
As for why Joseph needed a seerstone...
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Why did the priests of Israel have to blow their horns before the walls of Jericho fell?
Why didn't God just knock em down without all the "mystical stuff?"
And why did Elijah take his cape and hit the water to cause it to part?
And why did Moses have to carry that silly stick around with him?
And why did Jesus have to use mud to give the blind man his sight back?
Hi, Seth.
ReplyDeleteWell I can tell you "why" these men of God did what they did ... to show forth the power of God. To show Egypt or Israel or whomever, that the Lord is God!
For example, moses and his stick:
Why, the stick?
" That they may believe that the Lord God of their fathers , the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob, hath appeared unto thee." Ex. 4:5
God uses "signs" & wonders. He did that over and over again, so that His people know He is the Lord God and so he will be exalted before the lost and bring souls to Him.
I don't see using a peep stone as a "sign" or "wonder" per say, though.
Kind regards,
gloria
I do.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't make your personal tastes the judge of the things of God.
Hi, seth. Fortunately I don't "rely" on my own personal judgements or tastes. I rely on God's word to point the way.
ReplyDeleteHow does using a peep stone glorify God, seth?
Kind regards,
gloria
It certainly did for Joseph. To him it was wondrous, miraculous, and fully an affirmation of the power of God and the task he had for Joseph to do.
ReplyDeleteAnd if you are going to call that silly, then I would see no reason why you shouldn't call the other examples I cited silly as well.
It's only silly because you've been prejudiced to regard it as such.
But there is no inherent silliness in it.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteWhy so defensive? I have not called you or what you say "silly" here.
BTW, I have heard of Mormon who believe that Jospeh Used the urim and thumin ... so which one do you think it was.. the urim and thumin or the peep stone? I was taught it was the urim and thumin, but I have read since then accounts that he possibly used a peep stone.
Which one do you believe he used to translate?
Kind regards,
gloria
That's true, you did not expressly call it that. But you do seem to be making the point that a seerstone would not be a way of glorifying god. Either way you look at it, it did seem like you were sort of trivializing the means of God's miracle (from a Mormon standpoint).
ReplyDeleteAs to the methods Joseph used...
According to historian Richard Bushman, it was a progression of methods. You draw from different accounts and you will get different arrangements at different times. We have Emma's account, Martin Harris', Oliver Cowdery, and I think some others.
Putting them all together, Bushman is of the opinion that initially, Joseph used the Urim and Thummim. But after that he started using the seerstone placed in a hat, to block out all other light. Eventually, he even moved away from using a seerstone and simply transmitted the words directly.
Plates, seerstone, Urim and Thummim... all of these were not a part of some academically sound and rigorous translation effort. But were the tangible items of a miraculous transmission of a message from God about a people from long ago.
To Joseph, it must have been a fantastic boost to his faith and confidence in the Lord.
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteYou've never heard of the Documentary Hypothesis, but you think you're well-learned in the Bible? How does that work?
Yes, I'm quite familiar with the peepstone. Why did they need a Urim and Thummim in the Bible? Have you read Rough Stone Rolling? Why does any prophet need a prop for a miracle? Why did Jesus use mud to cure the blind man? Why do you not call the Biblical props that Seth mentioned silly? Do you understand that Isaiah literally walked through the streets of Jerusalem naked? Ezekiel literally ate the Bible. Isn't that silly as well? Isn't Lot's wife turning to salt silly? The Flood? The Exodus? Jonah? Balaam's Donkey? Jericho's walls falling down? I mean really, if we're going to pick and choose which miracles are silly or not, we should at least try to be objective about them.
You said before you're not here to argue, so I'm not going to try to get too argumentative here. Yes the Bible says God is not the author of confusion, yet apparently he is because there are so many religions who claim to follow the bible, that as it says in JSH 1:12, "the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible."
I understand what you are trying to say about hearts being able to deceive us. Certainly that is true. But if you're trying to insinuate that your heart is incapable of deceit, then you are deluded.
Gloria, I believe you have a good heart, and you're trying your best. I believe I am too. I believe many people of a multitude of religions are as well. We all rely on our hearts to interpret God. For you to imply that you are spiritually (or intellectually) superior is a fallacy. You rely on your heart as to whether to accept or reject all denominations. To pretend that your Biblical interpretation is better than me, the Pope, the Prophet, Buddha, Mohamed, Calvin, Wesley, Luther, or any other person is just plain silly. You don't strike me as a theologian, who can truly make an intellectual argument as to why your position is superior to anybody else's.
As a Born Again believer, I would think that Joseph Smith's vision was the ultimate Born Again Experience, and might hold some appeal to you. While I agree that Joseph certainly had his faults, he didn't commit genocide like Joshua did, he didn't attempt human sacrifice like Abraham did (or send his wife Hagar and son Ishmael in the desert to die), and he didn't sell a brother into slavery like the 10 sons of Israel did. I assume you hold these Biblical men as prophets, or at least God's chosen people, yet apparently you look the other way when they did some "spiritual" acts that we would consider a crime today.
How do you explain some of these odd things in the Bible you claim to interpret so perfectly? Perhaps you're simply willing to throw out the Old Testament completely as it doesn't fit with your heart's theology?
Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking time to share.
I make no claims to be an intellectual.
I make no claims of being a bible scholar.
I make no claims of being better than the next person.
What I do claim is the following:
Jesus saves!
I have been purchased, redeemed and saved by grace!
I have been made right with God thru Jesus.
I will live eternally with God because of what Jesus did.
Those are my claims.
You wish to call me silly go right ahead.
They said much worse of my Lord, so I'll count it all for joy!!
Have a great day,
gloria
Geez... can you imagine how much crap Mormons would be getting if Joseph Smith had miraculously struck two people dead who failed to turn over the deed to their farm?
ReplyDeleteWe'd never hear the end of it.
Good thing it was just Peter who did it - he gets a free pass apparently.
Yeah, you're right, Seth. Mormons already have enough to deal with when it comes to Joseph Smith. Their plate is stacked high enough already!
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way -- Peter couldn't possibly strike anyone down dead. Seth, I would think you knew it was the power of God and not Peter. :) You know lying to the Holy Spirit is grievous. God doesn't take it too lightly.
Kind regards,
gloria
Come on gloria,
ReplyDeleteYou know full well that if something like that had happened in MORMON history, Bill McKeever would be - right now - claiming that God had nothing to do with it. That Joseph staged their assassination or poisoned them, or something like that.
Just like he does with all our claims to the miraculous. It's always fraud and deceit.
Well, it works both ways gloria.
Hi, seth.
ReplyDeleteWell Joseph Smith can take credit for murdering -- or shall I say attempting to murder, Seth. Or are you not familiar with what really went down at Carthage?
Come on,Joseph was no saint.
He had a penchant for women, his personal life was a mess, his finances a ruin, and he really had an ego to boot. ( claiming that he was more popular basically than Jesus himself).
I don't doubt that Joseph worked "miracles" Seth. The bible says that even the devil can appear as an angel of light. Satan has great power. I don't for one second underestimate that. Even Pharoah's "wise men" could create miracles .
Kind regards,
gloria
And Peter can take credit for attempted murder of one of the High Priest's servants.
ReplyDeleteJoseph went to Carthage unarmed expecting to die helplessly. It was AFTER he was in Carthage that someone smuggled in a pistol to him.
Then over one-hundred men with rifles stormed the jail to kill him. In defense of his friends, Joseph discharged his single-use "pepperbox pistol" and then ran to the window and was shot.
And you have the utter audacity to call THAT "attempted murder?"
Are you for real?
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI can hear the frustration and hostility in your comments.
I know how hard it is for the LDS when the subject of Joseph Smith comes up.
It's hard to find out that the person you praise, hold up and almost put at a worship status was less than a godly person.
It's not easy. I recall when I began to find out the truth about Joseph Smith. I was disheartened. It's disappointing to find out the facts don't match the myth surrounding him.
I understand your defensiveness, your anger , your frustration. It's understandable.
Joseph Smith did not go down as a lamb, docile and meek .... as the LDS myth proclaims. He went down shooting.( yeah and some would categorize that as attempted murder or at the very least self defense!)
As much as you LDS to uphold the myths surrounding the person of Joseph Smith, you can't.
His life was a mess, Seth.
His family life -- wowza...polyandrous and polygamous affairs.
His finances in a state of disaster ( he never really held down a profession per say)
His false prophesies that never came true. ( the hallmark of a true prophet is that their prophesies come true!)
Seth, the facts speak for themselves.
It's hard to deal with it.
I understand your frustrations.
That is why your comments here and other places are filled with hostility, & condescension.
I'll be praying for you.
Kind regards,
gloria
No you don't understand my frustration gloria.
ReplyDeleteI never held Joseph up to godly status in the first place. I happened to know at an early age that he happened to use swear words on occasion. I also knew that he was given to boasting.
Heck, even the Doctrine and Covenants is loaded with the Lord rebuking Joseph Smith. So no hero-worship problem here, thanks.
What is frustrating is that we have four essentially helpless men trapped in a jail - assaulted by over 100 men with rifles and one of them fires off a single-use weapon in defense of his friends.
And you call it "attempted murder."
And as I noted, when Joseph made his "lamb to the slaughter" remark, he was unarmed. He expected to die and went willingly. Then he got a pistol and used it to help his friends and ran to the window, in plain sight of a murderous armed mob.
I mean, come on gloria. This is just silly.
Hey, seth. I am glad you have a healthy understanding of Joseph Smith. As you know, many LDS subscribe to the myths vs. the facts on who he actually was.
ReplyDeleteHe was a man, with flaws and imperfections. I happen to believe he was also a false prophet. I know you would disagree with that.
The LDS church plays up the "lamb to the slaughter" myth when in reality he was not.
But the fact is the LDS church promotes this myth about Joseph being this innocent man. It just isn't so. He was sent to carthage because he committed a federal crime by having the printing press destroyed.
And why did he want it to be destroyed? Take a guess, or maybe you already know.
I think the adulation of Joseph Smith in the LDS church borders on hero worship. That kind of praise and honor should go to one man only -- JESUS CHRIST.
Kind regards,
Gloria
Last I heard gloria, destroying a printing press wasn't something you got the death sentence for.
ReplyDeleteNeither was polygamy - or even adultery if you want to call it that (I do not).
Lamb to the slaughter works just fine for me.
Oh, and do you admit that your "attempted murder" comment was incorrect?
Why did Joseph want the printing press destroyed, seth?
ReplyDeleteFreedom of speech is a right in this country. Last I checked it was a constitutional right. Why would Joseph want a press destroyed?
I believe Joseph went down kicking. No docile lamb. Yes, he attempted to kill people his last minutes of life. Call it self defense or whatever you wish, but yeah he went down shooting. No lamb to the slaughter. Far from it.
Kind regards,
gloria
You don't seem to have a very good grasp on American history gloria.
ReplyDeleteAbuses of the rule of law were almost commonplace in 1800s America. The freedom of the press is a rather recent right - as I learned in Constitutional Law a few years back. It is only recently that it has gained the sacred status we give it today. Back in Joseph's time, it was regularly abused. Relatively speaking, Joseph's actions were almost gentle by comparison to practices found in plenty of other American settlements at the time.
And if Joseph was kicking and fighting to the end, why run to the window where he was sure to get his head blown off?
Really gloria, this is one of the dumber arguments that Bill McKeever came up with. I'm almost embarrassed for him that he's still using it.
You don't have to be as passive as Gandhi to be called a martyr.
Opponents of Mormonism hurt no cause but their own when they pull out this kind of nit-picky rubbish.
It makes people think the rest of your arguments must really stink if you have to resort to this kind of petty criticism.
I don't fault Joseph's actions at Carthage one little bit. I agree with every - last - one - of - them.
Got it?
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteHow can you condemn Joseph Smith, and not condemn Abraham for attempting to kill Isaac? How can you not condemn Abraham for sending our Hagar and Ishmael to die in the wilderness? How can you not condemn Joshua's genocide in Jericho? How do you not condemn Jacob stealing Esau's birthright? Were Elijah's commands godly when he ordered Jezebel trampled by horses? Was the murderer David really worthy to write the scriptures we have in the Psalms?
If you really studied the Bible, you would see that it has way more problems than anything you can dig up about Joseph Smith. The children of Israel had a real problem with Human Sacrifice (see Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel), and often sacrificed their children to Canaanite gods or Baal. Is Solomon's polygamy worthy of emulation? Should women be silent in church? Why didn't Christ condemn slavery?
Why have you failed to actually study the Bible as you supposedly have studied Mormonism?
Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking time to share.
I appreciate the chance to witness to Mormons and share the GOOD NEWS with them.:)
I do not condone the sins that David and his murder or his polygamous affairs. God doesn't either. I do not condone sin,nor does God. but yet we read over and over again in the word of God, that God uses sinners for His purposes, for HIS glory.
David sinned.
Solomon sinned.
Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc they all sinned.
They never said they were past sin.
Abraham did wrong by listening to sarah and using hagar to have child. It was wrong. God never said it was right.
The wonderful & beautiful thing about God is He uses sinners for His purposes.
Christians do not condone these practices. Mormon like to legitimize Joseph's sins as if they were ok and actually go as far as to say "God ok'd it". Christians will come out and say David sinned by taking all those women and Solomon too, etc. VS. the mormons who legitimize his behaviors instead of calling them for what they were "sins". Joseph sinned. Why is it so hard to admit that?
God's Word clearly and boldly shows the sinful nature of man and His desperate need for God's redemption and cleansing thru Christ Jesus.
If you truly understood the bible you would see that is the CENTRAL and key message.
I am praying that the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to see the truth and ears to hear,
gloria
No, you missed Heretic's point gloria.
ReplyDeleteThe point in him bringing it up was not to say "God OK-ed it."
The point was the same as the one you expressed: God uses sinful mortals to bring about his purposes.
Sinful mortals like Joseph Smith, for instance.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteWould you kindly answer the following question:
Why did Joseph have the printing press destroyed?
What was the real reason that he was sent to Carthage?
If you wish to continue to dialogue here, I would kindly remind you Seth to watch the tone of your posts. I don't mind you sharing differig views. But your "tone" needs to be checked.
The fruit of the Spirit is peace, love , joy, kindness and self control. Gal. 5:22
You may wish to brush up on that passage.
I seriously feel sorry for you Seth. The anger and hostility is so apparent in your remarks you post here and other places. Do you really help the cause of mormonism when you display this kind of fruit? I have noticed that most LDS online are so anger filled. It's so sad.
Something to think about,
Kind regards for a lovely day ~~
gloria
Seth,
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Joseph Smith sinned by lying about his polygamous relationships?
Aren't lying lips an abomination before the Lord?
Isn't coveting your neighbor's wife a sin?
This is a prime example of how the LDS church legitimizes Jospeh's sin and said " God ok'd it". There is no biblical mandate.
Kind regards,
gloria
To answer you printing press question gloria:
ReplyDeleteI think it was a combination of things that all ultimately boiled down to - he thought the press was making dangerous provocations that were going to get his people killed.
The Nauvoo Expositor had a lot of inflammatory content. Some of it was about Joseph's polygamy issues. Evangelicals would like to paint this whole thing as Joseph trying to shut down reports of his polygamous "affairs" as they would call them.
I think this is overly simplistic.
I imagine Joseph's own pride played a factor here (note that I don't try to paint the action as a particularly good one). But that wasn't the only factor.
Being a Mormon was dangerous back then. We were being victimized for our beliefs. The political climate was toxic. We had already had our homes burned, our women raped, our people killed, and our land stolen in Missouri.
And now the climate in Illinois was threatening to repeat Missouri. In the middle of this, the Nauvoo Expositor was printing outright hatred against the Mormons in general as well as Joseph Smith in particular.
From Joseph's perspective the Nauvoo Expositor was a threat to the safety of his people. Polygamy factored in, but it was only a factor.
Never forget gloria, what wretched things your fellow Protestants did to my people.
Never forget.
Because I never will.
Thank you seth for your courteous remarks. Your tone has improved, and I for one appreciate it. :) Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAs for the destruction of the printing press. It was wrong for Joseph to have ordered that done. We both know that the press was going to print incriminating evidence about Joseph Smith. Remember, Joseph had "publicly" proclaimed that there was no polygamy going on. He lied. He was also engaging in polyandrous relationships.
Where does God give the ok for coveting another man's wife?
The bible is clear on these issues, so I won't bore you with citing passages.
As far as what the "protestants" did... remember, Seth the greatest animosity came from apostate Mormons? Correct? Men and women who were sick and tired of the lies, the deception and from men who weren't too keen on the idea of their wives being coveted.
I do not excuse what was done to the LDS people. It was wrong. I do not condone that. Sin is sin is sin.
But please remember, Seth that your people have been "less than Christlike" as well. Lest you forget the Mt.Meadow's Massacre. I am sure you are familiar with the "cleansing" period of history under Brigham Young. Blood atonement, and cleansing the saints of their sins.
Your people are just as guilty of sin as the next.
Terrible, dirty, filthy sin.
We **all** are sinners in need of Christ's redemptive power.
That is why I write here.
To share the glorious good news, that Jesus Christ, has died and shed his blood so that we can be cleansed of our sins and all sins!!
Hallelujah what an amazing God I have!!
Sin entered the world thru one man, and thru one man came life eternal!
Praise His holy holy name!
gloria
p.s. As a believer, I am also called to forgive, Seth. I forgive the Mormons for the awful things they did to that wagon party. It was a terrible awful thing. But God calls me to forgive, because He first forgave me.
Can you not do the same?
Have you actually read what was being printed about the Mormons at that time?
ReplyDeleteI'd invite you to do so, and judge for yourself whether it was fair or justified.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI am not in disagreement with you that the LDS were treated poorly.
But they are most definitely not the only group , religious or other wise that have been treated poorly in the history of mankind. It doesn't justify the actions of destruction of the printing press. Two wrongs don't make a right. God calls us to turn the other cheek, to forgive, and to love our enemies.
You can't even begin to compare what the LDS went thru to what early Christians endured, or what Christians are enduring today in the persecuted nations. Women, Children, pastors burned, incarcerated, killed, etc.
Much evil has been done in the "name of religion".
I am not in any way excusing it.
But truly, Seth the LDS do have some what of a persecution complex, don't you think?
Compared to early Christians they didn't even touch the level of persecution that went on.
Life is not fair. People are cruel and unkind.
Injustices occur.
That is why the world needs JESUS SO MUCH!!
He is the answer to our problems.
As a Christian I pray with my local church for the persecuted church. We pray that those in the persecuted nations ( 53 countries do not allow bibles to be published) will stand strong int he Lord. We also pray that they will love their enemies, do good to those that despite-fully use them and turn the other cheek.
That is what we are compelled and led to do.
That is what separates us from the non christian faiths. The supernatural ability , given to us by the Holy Spirit to forgive, to love our enemies and to do good to them.
I am awe struck by what I read about how the persecuted Christians reach out in love to those who do evil to them.
You may wish to check out:
www.persecutedchurch.org to read up on stories of Christians who are in jail, dying and being stoned, killed, etc simply because they love Jesus.
Kind regards,
gloria
I don't think the game of "who suffered more" is particularly useful.
ReplyDeleteBut I do resent what looks like Bill McKeever's attempt to poo-poo Protestant atrocities against the Mormons, and make it look like Joseph Smith deserved it.
Joseph Smith did not deserve what happened to him. Not one bit.
And I have no doubt in my mind that if things ever break down seriously in our American society, that my people will relive these persecutions once again at the hands of our neighbors.
ReplyDeleteThe prejudices and hatreds are alive and well. It's just our current prosperity and civil society that keeps it all under the lid. It's still there waiting to be woken up again.
oh my seth, with all due respect...
ReplyDeleteJesus is THE ONLY one that did not "deserve" to die.
Why so much a focus on Joseph Smith? My goodness, Seth. He is not our Savior. He did not pay the sin offering so that we may receive the gift of eternal life. He was a man. A sinner just in need of Jesus as the next sinner.
This is one of the reasons that many don't embrace mormonism -- the focus on Joseph instead of Jesus.
You know what we deserve, Seth?
D E A T H & H E L L
None of us, including Joseph deserve anything Seth. We are all fallen creatures, sinful and woefully lost .
Jesus is the ONLY FIX .
Kind regards,
gloria
So, I suppose that since Jesus is the only one who didn't deserve to die, the Jewish Holocaust was okey-dokey?
ReplyDeleteThis Evangelical denigration of humanity is a rather convenient device for ignoring human suffering that you don't want to deal with, don't you think?
Gosh, Seth. You really have an axe to grind with Bill McKeever. Personally, I don't know him and have not read his stuff on the net. ( not enough time in the day!)
ReplyDeleteYou know what Seth, let me tell you something about Jesus... HE calls us to forgive Seth.
Forgiveness is so freeing act.
Such a blessed thing.
You should try it some time.
Give forgiveness a try, Seth.
Forgive people for what they did to the Mormons.
Forgive your loved ones when they hurt you or use you.
Forgive.
Beautiful... beautiful word...
Forgiveness.
I'll be praying that the Lord can help you to let go of all that hostility and anger and forgive...... it's so healing.
Kind regards,
gloria
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI think what happened to the Jews is awful....
I think what the Mormons endured at Haun's Mill awful.....
I think what the Mormons did at Mt. Meadows is awful......
I think we all do awful things. Yeah, me too.
I am guilty of it. Awful things. I do what I don't want to do, and then I do what I hate!! Oh wretch that I am! I am chief sinner, Seth.
Paul spoke the truth.
The bible speaks clearly , Seth.
The wages of sin is DEATH AND HELL.
Yes, we deserve death.
We deserve hell.
But by God's loving grace, He provided Jesus........
Our final and great sin offering.....
Our perfect High priest.....
Our Savior and Redeemer........
Yeah, we deserve death Seth.
But God offered me a gift that blew my socks off....my awesome God died for me, and for you.
gloria
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteYou excuse Biblical prophets bad behavior, but not Joseph Smith's. If God can utilize a murderer like David, why can't he utilize a printing-press destroyer like Joseph? If David lusted after his neighbor Uriah's wife and was chosen by God to write Psalms, why can't God utilize Joseph the same way? Have you torn Psalms and Genesis out of your Bible because they were written by sinful men?
You're highly inconsistent in your arguments. You're welcome to your views, but I hope you realize your inconsistency.
You seem to be well-versed in anti-mormon lit, but seem oblivious to anti-Bible or anti-Christian lit. I find your arguments blind to the facts.
If you want to really understand why the printing press was destroyed, you should read my blog post on the Nauvoo Expositor. I have some conclusions that will surprise both Mormons and non-Mormons. I also urge you once again to read my post about the Documentary Hypothesis if you really want to become better informed about the compilation of the Bible.
Good luck witnessing to Mormons. You may be successful with uniformed ones like you were, but I can't take any of your arguments with any seriousness due to your uninformed understanding of the Bible.
Dear Mormon Heretic,
ReplyDeleteIf you would honestly take some time to read thru my comments left here, you would see I have not in any shape condoned any sin from any one mentioned in the bible.
Read the comments and you will see.
I do not condone the sins of David or any one else. Either does God. He sinned.
I do no condone the sins of Joseph Smith. He sinned. Either does God.
God does not condone sin.
The bible's message is one of showing the sinner like you and I how hopelessly lost we are and how desperately we need Jesus.
That is the central message of Christianity.
I am also calling you on your 'tone'.. .. if you wish to be patronizing and condescending, please don't post here. Share what you think and by all means disagree, but I will not tolerate rudeness or condescension. Not here. There are other blogs that will tolerate that kind of junk, but not here.
I will state this once. Check your tone.
It's fine to disagree with what I am saying. But I am asking you to check the tone of your comments.
If you can't say something courteously without personally attacking a person, then perhaps you should refrain from speaking/writing.
The gifts of the Spirit are love, peace, joy, and self control. Gal. 5:22
Perhaps you may find it refreshing to read this passage.
I will continue to pray for you. That God will truly open your eyes to see what you are missing out on,
gloria
I'm coming late to this discussion and may not even get a response, but I wanted to ask a question or two in response to the following from Seth R:
ReplyDelete"I don't fault Joseph's actions at Carthage one little bit. I agree with every - last - one - of - them."
Do you agree with his actions of drinking and smoking the night before he died while incarcerated at Carthage Jail? You keep stating that Joseph used a single-use pistol -it was not. According to History of the Church, Joseph had a six-shooter. It was Hyrum who had a single shot pistol. After Hyrum was shot, Joseph got off THREE shots...two people did indeed die from those shots. No "attempted murder" about it. But as Gloria has said, we are not here to argue -there are plenty of other blogs on which to do that. ;)
The *difference* here is that Joseph never supplicated himself to the Lord and admitted he was a sinner desperately in need of saving, rather he boasted that he was greater than Jesus Himself!
As for the original topic, when I was first saved (having grown up Mormon) it was difficult for me to discern when the Spirit was speaking to me and when it was my own desires I was feeling, but eventually I "got the hang of it". When the Spirit speaks to me, it does not come across as a warm feeling, or a burning in my bosom -rather, it is an impression. God impresses a thought upon me through the Spirit, it is almost as though there is a voice in my head. Not sure if this is making any sense or helping, but I wanted to share.
Hi, pip!
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your thoughts and leaving a comment here. I knew Joseph had killed 2 people, but I was hoping seth here would speak up and acknowledge that himself. Thanks for pointing that out. I think Joseph was acting in self defense, and not so much I want to "murder these guys". But at the same time he did kill 2 men.
The thing that concerns me is the image the LDS church gives of this "lamb to the slaughter".. for years before doing the research, I truly believed joseph died meekly and how awful that he was in prison! Well, there was good reason for his imprisonment. The LDS church does not openly talk too much about the fact that this was indeed the reason why he was at Carthage. He broke the law by destroying a printing press. ( because that press was going to tell some very telling news about his personal life!) They don't talk to much about the press issue, for obvious reasons. They want to propagate the myth of the hero.
In any case, I do understand what you are saying about how the holy Spirit works and how God speak. The same thing happens to me.
Thanks for taking time to stop by. It's refreshing to hear from other Christians here.:)
God bless,
gloria
OK. Fine. It's frankly disgusting that I even have to defend a few shots fired by a man being attacked by over 100 enraged men with rifles. But since you guys have decided to hang your hat on crap like this, here goes:
ReplyDeleteFirst the claim that Joseph wasn't a martyr because he had the temerity to defend himself:
In order to make their argument tenable, the critics must do three things. First, they must take some creative liberties with the English language. In this case, the word being redefined is the term martyr. Webster’s New World Dictionary defines a "martyr" as
“a person who chooses to suffer or die rather than give up his faith or his principles.”
The online resource, Dictionary.com, defines a martyr as:
“one who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.”
Both are nearly identical and fairly standard definitions, and neither includes a requirement or qualifiers of any sort. However, some anti-Mormon writers have taken the term martyr and subtly changed its definition to suit their own needs. The new definition would probably read something like this: Martyr: a person who chooses to suffer or die rather than give up his faith or his principles without any resistance or effort at self-defense on his part whatsoever.
Critics are free to use such a definition, but it belongs to them alone; it is not the standard use of the word, and not what Church members mean when they refer to the "martyrdom" of Joseph and Hyrum Smith at Carthage.
Throughout Christian history, "martyrs" have been understood to be those who suffered quietly, and those who resisted, even with violence, and even to the death of those who persecuted them for their beliefs. (See FAIR wiki article: Martyrdom in Christian history.) The first anti-Mormon argument thus focuses on the fact that Joseph had a firearm and that he used that firearm to defend himself. Critics claim that Joseph's announcement that he was going “as a lamb to the slaughter” is false, since he fought back.
Anyone who has ever worked on a farm or in a slaughterhouse knows that sheep do not go willingly to the slaughter. They kick and buck, bleat, scream, and make every attempt to escape their fate. In fact, they make such a haunting sound, that the title of an extremely popular Hollywood horror film was based on it: "The Silence of the Lambs." The term “lamb to the slaughter” simply refers to the inevitability of the final outcome. No matter how valiantly they struggle, the fate of the sheep is sealed. If we apply this understanding to Joseph Smith and his brother, it is clear that they truly were slaughtered like lambs. Fight as they might, they were doomed.
And, as I said earlier. Joseph made his "lamb" statement before he was even arrested, much less armed.
So - he passes the test. Martyr as charged.
Next the details on what Joseph did in the jail and whether the LDS Church covers this stuff up:
ReplyDeleteThe critics' second tactic is to rely on their target reader being uninformed about trivial aspects of LDS history. Many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (and this is especially true of new members or less-active members) are not aware of all the excruciatingly minute details of the history of the Church. It has become a common tactic among some anti-Mormon aficionados of Mormon history to use this historical ignorance as a weapon. These writers often claim to “expose” these minor events of Church history in a sensationalistic attempt to shock members of the Church with “hidden” revelations or “secret” accounts about various episodes in Church history. They will often claim that the Church has kept this knowledge under wraps for fear that if it was generally known it would cause many members of the Church to immediately renounce their faith and result in the ruination of the Church.
Unfortunately for the critics, Joseph's attempt to defend himself, his brother, and his friends, and his possession of a pepperbox gun, is clearly spelled out in the History of the Church:
"In the meantime Joseph, Hyrum, and Elder Taylor had their coats off. Joseph sprang to his coat for his six-shooter, Hyrum for his single barrel, Taylor for Markham's large hickory cane, and Dr. Richards for Taylor's cane. All sprang against the door, the balls whistled up the stairway, and in an instant one came through the door.
Joseph Smith, John Taylor and Dr. Richards sprang to the left of the door, and tried to knock aside the guns of the ruffians...
Joseph reached round the door casing, and discharged his six shooter into the passage, some barrels missing fire. Continual discharges of musketry came into the room. Elder Taylor continued parrying the guns until they had got them about half their length into the room, when he found that resistance was vain, and he attempted to jump out of the window, where a ball fired from within struck him on his left thigh, hitting the bone, and passing through to within half an inch of the other side. He fell on the window sill, when a ball fired from the outside struck his watch in his vest pocket, and threw him back into the room."
The next volume of the History of the Church tells the story from John Taylor's point of view:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of sympathy and regard manifested in the countenance of Brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and, leaning over him, exclaimed, 'Oh! my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Wheelock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged."
If the Church wished to hide these facts, why did they publish them in the History of the Church not once, but twice?
Some cover-up. I knew this stuff in high school Gloria.
Finally, the "murder" thing:
ReplyDeleteThe critics' third attack is to insist that since Joseph fired his gun six times (only three shots actually discharged) and he hit two of the mobbers, he is a "murderer."
Joseph's actions were clearly self-defense and defense of others under the common law. But, this point is moot since the mobbers who were hit were not killed (as was first reported in some Church publications) but only wounded. They were alive and well at the trial held for mob leaders, and were identified by witnesses. Their good health allowed them to receive gifts because of their role in the assault on Joseph, Hyrum, and the other prisoners.
Tell me Gloria, if a hooded man enters my house, draws a knife and runs for my seven year-old daughter and I shoot him in the back...
Are you going to demand that I be arrested for murder?
As far as your claim - "well, we're all sinners, so Joseph wasn't innocent."
Well... that's true. But so what? No one here is comparing Joseph to Jesus Christ. I don't know anyone in the Church who does - even though anti-Mormons love to keep pushing the ridiculous claim that we worship Joseph instead of Jesus (frankly, we don't worship Joseph any more than Evangelicals worship Paul).
Tell me, was the Chinese army's slaughter of civilians at Tienanmen Square somehow OK because the protesters weren't "innocents?"
Were the Mormon actions at Mountain Meadows OK because the Missouri travelers shot back?
Honestly, I think you are just allowing your anger at the LDS Church to cloud your view of history here. I know you have a lot of motive to dehumanize Joseph Smith as much as possible. But this is just ridiculous.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking time to share your point of view in a courteous manner. I appreciate it.;)
I think the LDS church "focus" is on the myth of Joseph Smith instead of who he truly was.
Do you agree?
Do you think many LDS people read the history of the church? I think many do not. I think many don't even pick up their scriptures let alone the history of the church. What do you think?
Did you see the movie produced by the LDS church on Joseph Smith that is shown in Nauvoo as JSM building in SLC?
Did you notice them stating "why" the printing press was destroyed?
They don't focus on these facts.
I think they leave them out purposefully, Seth.
I agree most men would do just as Smith did.. fire back, heck I might do the same.
But for most of us, a martyr is not a martyr if they go down shooting..... when we think of a martyr we think of Stephen, or Jesus... both of whom asked God in the final moments to forgive those who killed them...
Did joseph implore God and say " father forgive these men"?
What I'm saying seth is I think so much of LDS history is "myth" vs. facts. Do you think so?
Interested to hear your response and hey thanks again for the courteous tone, I really do appreciate it.
Kind regards,
gloria
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI re-read your quotes from History of the Church above.. I noticed that there was no mention of the men who were shot at by Joseph , dying from the wounds. Why do you think this info was left out?
Perhaps it's there... I don't have my History of the Church handy ( it's in the attic) so maybe it is... would you kindly share the part where it states that these men died from wounds inflicted by the gun smith shot?
Thanks,
gloria
Well, I've tried hard to keep my temper in control here Gloria. I don't think I entirely succeeded.
ReplyDeleteYes, LDS idolize Joseph Smith. Just like Michael Jackson fans idolize Michael Jackson. Just like a lot of people idolize Obama. Just like Evangelicals idolize Paul. Just like a lot of main street Christians whitewash Biblical history.
This isn't a particularly LDS failing. It's a human failing and if you thought leaving the LDS Church was going to get you away from it, you're going to be very unpleasantly surprised.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, Just because you think Joseph was a martyr.. certainly does not mean the rest of the world thinks as you do.
You are free to hold your opinion of course, but just because Seth Rogers states that Smith is a martyr does not prove he is.
Kind regards,
gloria
Re-read my above comments.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say they died because my historical sources say that two mobbers were wounded and none died.
I'm interested to see if Pip's alleged sources are credible or not.
Not that I really care if those mobbers did die.
Good riddance I say - hope it hurt.
It's not just me who says Joseph was a martyr. I gave you the dictionary definition gloria.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't make complete passivity a requirement.
Really, did you skip my comments above because they were too long or something?
" Good riddance I say -- hope it hurt".........
ReplyDeleteSeth,
Please compare your statement above about the men jospeh killed to the statement of the Lord Jesus and Stephen when they were unjustly killed:
First Jesus' words:
" Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".. Luke 23:34
Then Stephens:
" And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God and saying " Lord Jesus receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord lay not this sin to their charge. "
Acts 8:60
All I can say is "wow" Seth.....
Gloria
I agree seth. Many people have "idols" .... I don't agree with that.
ReplyDeleteMost christians I hang with only have ONE they worship.. and he ain't no idol at that. :)
Kind regards,
Gloria
No, seth I don't skip your comments. I read them, sincerely I do.
ReplyDeleteI just was saying that just because you call Joseph a martyr doesn't mean he is to me or others. I understand that to the LDS people they hold him up as near worship status. I grant that they don't pray to him or bow down to his statue, but they do have statues of him and lots of them. :)
I am just saying just because Seth says you believe he is, doesn't mean the rest of us agree Seth.
We all have the right to our opinions and I respect yours. Doesn't mean I agree though. :)
Kind regards,
gloria
" .. no one here is comparing Joseph Smith to Jesus christ"......
ReplyDeleteNo, Seth you are right. I think Joseph Smith did that though, eh?
Kind regards,
gloria
Gloria, apparently I'm not a Christian.
ReplyDeleteSo I don't mind a couple filthy mobbing wastes of space getting their heads blown off. Don't lose any sleep over it at all.
Nope, I'm no Jesus. I'm not even a Stephen. Never pretended to be.
Don't know how Joseph felt about them though. I imagine his feelings weren't on the same exalted plane as Jesus.
Jesus is a hard model for any mortal sinner to live up to. So the fact that Joseph didn't rise to his level isn't exactly news to me.
No, I don't think Joseph was comparing his own character to that of Jesus Christ. I know the exact quote you are thinking of, and I think anti-Mormons make waaay too much of it.
ReplyDeleteAnd apparently you didn't read my comment. I didn't just say "Joseph is a martyr because I say so." I backed up my opinion with other authorities. You have not done the same.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteWow. After reading your last comments, all I can say is "wow".
All I can muster to say right now to ya, is heaven help you, Seth.
I'll continue to pray,
Gloria
Hello Gloria!
ReplyDeleteThank you so much for this blog. I will be praying for you and your ministry!
Hello "catz",
ReplyDeleteThanks for dropping by my blog and THANK you for your prayers!!
God bless,
gloria
Seth-
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you have been caused some pain by the actions of those acting under the name of Evangelical Christians. While I do not know all of the ways you have been wronged, either by the way your fellow LDS of the generations past, or in your personal experience, I can still say that I am sorry. Each and every one of us, be we filled with the Spirit of God or not, will cause hurt in the lives of others. Sometimes intentional, sometimes not. Sometimes we even think it is done in the best interests of our Lord (who truly can speak for himself...why do we forget that!).
Yes, it is part of our sin nature to mess up and in the process hurt others. BUT, it is always important to ask forgiveness and repent (walk away from those actions in complete opposite fashion) when the Lord brings them to our attention.
On behalf of the name of Evangelical Christians, I want to ask your forgiveness. Will you please forgive the whole for the unkind acts of the few? Forgive us for the unkind words that caused hurt in your heart?
I understand if you are not ready to do so, I just could not pass by the necessary apology with clear conscience. I do hope that one day you will be able to forgive the hurts that you have encountered.
Pure Mommy ~~
ReplyDeleteThank you for sharing your thoughts here.
I was touched.
God bless you,
gloria
Dallin Oaks did a book Called Carthage Conspiracy. Nobody was killed by Joseph at the Carthage jail, though one guy was shot in the face. Nobody was convicted either. There's a book review at http://www.mormonheretic.org/2009/09/08/carthage-conspiracy-trial-of-josephs-assassins/
ReplyDelete