Dear Readers,
I am always encouraged when you leave comments, and even more encouraged when LDS readers leave a comment. Thanks friends for taking time to leave your comments here. I also appreciate that the tone is courteous. :) Thanks!
I wanted to take a moment and respond to a comment left here in response to my post on the Bible.
" You don't have to believe the Bible is inerrant to believe the Bible. "
--- Seth
First of all, I wish to thank Seth for taking time to stop by my blog and sharing his thoughts about the Bible. I have visited enough blogs and sites that are similar to mine to know that the comments left are not always shall I say "kind". :) Thanks Seth for your courteous sharing.
I just wanted to take a moment and respond to Seth's comment, about "not having to believe the Bible is inerrant -- that is without error-- to believe in the Bible and it's message. "
Seth also mentioned that in the Book of Mormon it mentions various times that the Book of Mormon is not without error. Seth is correct. The Book of Mormon does not claim to be a inerrant book. That is, it openly declares it contains errors.
I want to point out to Seth and other LDS readers who may actually read the Bible , is that no where in the Bible does it state by any of it's writers that it contains errors. Not one place that I know of. On the contrary the Bible declares that God's word shall accomplish what is sets out to do ( to share the message of salvation thru Christ) and that it shall prosper in the thing that God sends it out to do.
" So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth, it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereunto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11
God's Word, is found in the Bible. It shall accomplish that which He desires and shall prosper. God reveals Himself to men by His Word, which shall not return to Him in vain. ( void) The Word of God therefore, accomplishes His purposes by announcing salvation to all mankind. Thus the great need and importance the world has, to read the Bible.
I also love the passage in Isaiah 46:9-11
" Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying: "My counsel shall stand, and I will do my pleasure.... yea, I have spoken it I will also bring it to pass, I purposed it, I will also do it."
He speaks thru His Word and what He declares and has declared shall come to pass. We see that over and over again thru the Biblical prophesy. Prophesies about our Lord's birth, life, and eventual sacrifice was prophesied years prior. What God has declared in His Word, has come to pass. There is yet things to come to pass as well. His eventual return for His Bride, The Church is something we look forward to as believers. What God has spoken is found in the Bible. It shall truly come to pass , if it has not already been fulfilled.
The concern I have with the LDS view that the Bible is not inerrant, and does have errors, is that "if" that is the point of view the reader has about God's word -- then how can the reader of the Bible truly come to trust God? How can one "trust" something that it believes contains error? To say The Bible contains errors is to declare God is a God of errors. As I mentioned earlier, The Bible does not declare itself to be a book that contains errors. The writers of the Bible, were inspired by God.
" ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, or correction for instruction in righteousness. " 2 Timothy 3:16
This refers to the supernatural guidance of the writers of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, so that what they wrote was the divine Word of God, transcribed accurately, reliably, and without error in the original manuscripts. The word "inspiration" itself pictures God "breathing" out His Word to men. Since the scriptures are given to help Christians grow in their walk with the Lord, they should rely upon them for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in how to live correctly.
" Knowing this first that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of men, but holy men of God sake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21
The scriptures were written by holy ( holy in Greek and Hebrew means "set apart") men, or men "set apart" by God to write His Word. While in no way denying the individual personalities of the writers, or rejecting the distinctiveness of their particular styles, the Holy Spirit controlled the process of bringing things to the writer's memories. ( John 16:13) and ensuring what they recorded was the very Word of God. For example, Jeremiah once became so frustrated with the work God called him to do, he wanted to quit. But God's Spirit compelled him to go on. ( Jer. 20:9) Jonah also at first refused God's call to preach in Nineveh, but later obeyed. ( Jonah 3:1) As Christians we can read the Bible and be confident that this is the very Word of God.
When I was LDS, I regarded for many years the Bible with suspicion. I had been taught that the Catholic Church had thru the years ( middle ages and early Church years) meddled with it and had taken out plain and precious truths. I was led to believe that it was not reliable, and had errors, at times significant errors. ( case in point the passage in John 3 that states God is a Spirit, that is not a man. The LDS declare that to be an "error" or mistranslated.) When I began to read the bible in earnest, I read with sincerity, wishing to read it in it's entirety. I began my study with a sincere desire to read and understand. An amazing thing happened in the process. My eyes were opened, and I came to know and understand WHO Jesus was and is, and Who God is and Who is the Holy Spirit. My eyes and heart were further opened to realize, that NO where in the Bible is there any such command to join a particular church or that one has to have membership in some religious organization to gain eternal life. No, after reading the Bible, it was so clearly laid out to me that JESUS IS THE WAY. Jesus preached Himself, He did not preach a religious denomination. It was so very simply laid out.
My concern for Seth and other LDS readers is that they have been taught that the Bible contains errors. First of all, as I stated earlier no where does the Bible state that as it does in the Book of Mormon, and secondly we have texts today, ancient manuscripts that point out to us that there isn't errors as the LDS teach. The Bible can be trusted. It is not in error. Another book I highly recommend is the book : Evidence that demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell. This man , was an atheist when he began to study the Bible. He began it's study with the intent to prove it's falseness. In the process of studying God's Word, He was proved of it's truth! A wonderful and very intense book for those Bible critics out there.
If one truly believes The Bible is God inspired, not of " private interpretation" or "mistranslated" then one can come to understand and know that Jesus , The Messiah is the ONLY means by which man can inherit eternal life.
I challenge my LDS readers to perhaps consider picking up a non - LDS version of the Bible, that does not have the Joseph Smith translations and read for one self. There are many wonderful modern translations of the Bible, and yes they are reliable. The New KJV and NIV Bibles are reliable and wonderful translations. Pick one up and give it a try. I promise you that if you read with a sincere heart you will be changed. God's Word is just that powerful.
Seth, thanks again for sharing and for the opportunity to respond to your comment.
God bless,
gloria
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None of those verses imply that the Bible is inerrant. They simply state that the Bible is sufficient for our faith.
ReplyDeleteAs to whether the history proves a perfect transmission, I don't think it does, but I don't want to wade into that argument. My point in commenting is not to walk around raising new doubts about scripture.
All I'm saying is that I don't need the Bible to be perfect to have confidence in it. For me, good enough is good enough.
Hi, seth. Thanks for your comment and for sharing your thoughts here. I am glad that you feel you can trust the Bible - not all LDS believe that so I am encouraged by your comment.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible does not use the word "inerrant" but if one believes God can be trusted, then we can trust that God will be watching over how His Word is translated, and passed down. His hand has been over the entire process... and as I said before when we look at ancient documents that have been found, especially ones discovered in the past 100 yrs, it is so evident that their is amazing congruence in what we have today compared to ancient texts.
Unlike the Book of Mormon, the Bible does *not* state that is has errors, Seth. If it did, then God's word can not be trusted. Why would anyone want to read or trust or believe a book that openly declares to have errors in it?
Again, thanks for the courteous exchange.
Kind regards,
gloria
What kind of errors would you consider significant to be shaken by?
ReplyDeleteSpelling errors? Historical errors? Theological errors?
Or is even the slightest flaw (no matter how trivial or irrelevant) enough to destroy confidence?
Hi, seth. Thanks again for your comments and your courteous tone. I really do appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteI do not beleive the Bible has errors in it. Why? Because I believe it is inpsired by God, and God is BIG enough to make sure that it stayed in tact. I beleive the Holy Spirit's hand was in the translation process.
Truly God's Word has prospered as Isaiah said -- the Bible continues to be the most sold book worlwide, translated into more languages than any other book.
When one considers what it began as --- and what it is today - -- nothing short of a miracle!
To me, I believe if God truly did inspire the Bible ( as Timothy writes, and Peter) then thre is not going to be errors. God's hand is going to be protecting it. Yeah, there could have been men along the way who tried to destroy God's word -- but do I think God is bigger than man? Yeah, I do. God would cease to be God if he makes mistakes and errors. Men make mistakes, but God doesn't. If the Bible is inspired by God and written by "holy" ( set apart) men then I trust God has preserved it and watched over it's translation.
Bottom line, Seth is that the Bible has been scrutinized thru the generations and continues to stand.
Amazingly thru it all it has prospered to be the best selling and most translated book of all time.
That says something - don't you think?
Kind regards,
gloria
I do think so.
ReplyDeleteI would agree with you that many LDS do not really give the Bible its due. Some of us only wade into the Bible when we are looking for isolated verses to support a particular issue.
I hope I'm not one of those. I consider the transmission of the Bible through the ages to be remarkable. Miraculous even. Very rarely does a historical text survive with that kind of integrity. I believe there was a divine hand in the transmission process.
But I am trying to get a sense of what you mean by "errors."
Let me offer a couple examples.
1. If we found that Paul misspelled a word that doesn't make any difference in changing the doctrinal meaning of a scriptural passage, would that bother you?
2. What if we found that a passage in 1 Kings, for example, got a date wrong by about a year or two. Would this be enough to destroy confidence in the Bible?
For myself, I would not consider either #1 or #2 important enough to worry my faith at all. I just want to know what your take on it it.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI am encouraged by your comments. It's good to know that you do feel you can trust the bible.
As for errors -- do you think God can error?
Do you think He would allow errors in the translation or writing process?
Do you believe that God is all knowing and all powerful and truly can protect His word from error or getting into the hands of the "wrong" people?
From what we know about God from the Bible, God is not a God of errors. He is all knowing and all powerful. I don't believe He would allow errors in the Bible.
The "kind" of errors I am talking about is errors of magnitude that would call for a "re-translation" of verses. Like J.Smith did.
Do you think John 1:1 as it stands in the Bible is wrong or in error?
Do you believe John 4:24 is in error?
We aren't talking about spelling mistakes, Seth... Joseph Smith was not looking at grammar but changed entire passages of scripture to change the meanings.
Those translations I would call errors.
But what we have in the Bible today -- no it is not in error. I believe God watched over the entire translation process.
The Bible is reliable and does not need to be retranslated according to what an LDS leader says it "should" mean.
So, in essence the answer to your question is No, I do not believe the Bible contains errors.
Kind regards,
gloria
Interesting dialogue about the Bible.
ReplyDeleteAs I read the scriptures Gloria posted nowhere did they say "the bible" is inerrant. It said God's word is inerrant.
Now, where do we get God's word from? From the Holy Spirit through the prophets.
The Bible definitely contains God's word but are all of God's words he ever uttered through prophets through all of time just in the Bible? I don't think so.
Does the Bible contain errors? Well, it does have conflicting scriptures in it but so does the Book of Mormon.
The main thing to consider when reading scripture is to pray for discernment through the Holy Spirit. God will reveal the truth of all scripture to us through His Spirit.
Hi, ama! Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. The authors of the Bible was inspired by God "holy men" that is set apart to write God's word. It is not private interpretation, but God breathed. No where in the Bible does it declare that there are errors in it's writings. Unlike the Book of Mormon. The Bible does state various times that God's word is "pure".. purer than silver tried 7 times in a furnace! Now that is pure! The Bible also states that the word of God, will prosper and it surely has! The bible also declares that God's word has been preserved and it has. And where is God's word? Why in the Bible of course.
ReplyDeleteTruth can be known thru God's word. The heart is an deceptive thing, as the Bible states. We can not trust our "feelings" to define truth. Truth is not defined by an emotional state or feelings, but thru reading God's word. Truth is found in the word of God, and it does set us free. Jesus said it verly clearly when He defined that He is the truth.
May God bless you and open your eyes to see the truth that can set you free!
Kind regards,
gloria
The Bible doesn't say it is flawless either.
ReplyDeleteIt says that God is flawless, and from that, you gloria, IMPLY that the Bible must also be flawless.
It's a logical connection you are drawing. But it's not required.
Hi, seth. Thanks for dropping by and sharing again.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible states that God's Word is pure. Purer than silver tried 7 times in a furnace. Now that is pure!
If something is pure - does it have blemishes?
If God's word is pure, then it doesn't have blemishes. That is , blemishes of errors or mistranslations or false teachings.
Kind regards,
gloria
Of course God's Word is pure.
ReplyDeleteOnce it goes through the mind and pen of men is an entirely different matter.
Gloria,
ReplyDeleteI'm not disagreeing with you about God's word being pure. I do have a question though.
1. How did early Christians that didn't have a cannonized Bible hear God's word?
Hi, ama. Thanks for stopping by again. I responded to your question on your blog. Basically God's people have always in some form or another had access to God's Word. Whether that be orally or written, the Word of God has been there. Of course until the guttenberg press, there was no method of mass production. I am reading a wonderful book rigth now you may find interesting: The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Reformation and Protestatism. Excellent reading and it addresses how the word of God was spread orally and preserved in written form.
ReplyDeleteKind regards,
gloria
It seems to me to be completely incompatible with the nature of God that the One who created all things by His Word and who is eternal and perfect, omnipotent in every way, would be unable to preserve his Word. Assuming that the Bible contains errors suggests that God is unable to preserve His Word, in which He reveals Himself and the way of salvation through His Son. Seems kind of careless to let His Son die on a cross and let the record of that event be marred. Because the Bible is the way that God has chosen to reveal Himself to man, and because that same Word contains the only way for a sinner to be redeemed, it is inconsistent with the nature of God that He would allow it to be changed by some devious monks.
ReplyDeleteI never said God "couldn't" perfectly preserve his word Arthur.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying he didn't preserve his word perfectly.
Apparently, you and I just weren't worth the bother.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteIf God is perfect and wise, why would you think He didn't preserve His word? Assuming you beleive that His word should be preserved and the importance of doing so. Are you saying that God didn't preserve His word on purpose?
Please clarify,
gloria
ps. Arthur, good too see you here and I agree whole heartedly with your remarks. Our wonderful God has truly preserved HIS forever. PS. 12:7
"Are you saying that God didn't preserve His word on purpose?"
ReplyDeleteYes.
The last comment of mine was too snarky, but still heartfelt. I believe that God cares more about preserving human agency and free will than he cares about getting you and me a perfect Bible.
I imagine that he expects we'll manage anyway - even without an inerrant Bible.
Oh seth, I am sincerely sorry you feel this way , but I understand "why" you feel this way about God. This is what the LDS church teaches it's members. That the bible contains errors and can not be construed to be God's word *without* errors. That is where the divide is so great between Christians and LDS. To me, personally I can not believe God would allow His word to be messed with. I believe that the tenets of truth and salvation have truly been preserved and remain pure and will continue to be so. It goes hand in hand with my belief about God and "who" He is.
ReplyDeleteCan I ask, Seth have you prayed about the Bible and it's truthfullness? Have you read the Bible in it's entirety and with sincerity. If that is too personal a question, don't feel you need to answer. I know my husband, who is LDS, reads the Bible but with a great deal of skepitism.. he is always trying to find some loop hole or "mis-translation". I have given up talking to him about it, because it's pointless.
Just wondering what your spiritual experiences have been with the Bible.
Kind regards,
gloria
I have read the Bible in its entirety and I've read the New Testament at least a dozen times. I believe in it, and find it useful as scripture.
ReplyDeleteI just don't believe the Bible died on the cross for me. That's all.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteMay I ask, does one always need to be sarcastic about things? Just a question for you. :)
I am glad to hear that you have read the Bible in it's entirety. Have you prayed about it? I assume you have but not sure. Do you not see the Bible as authoritive or just useful. I ask because as a Christian the Bible is not only useful for day to day living, but also authoritive.
I seem to recall the LDS believe that the living prophet and his words carry more weight than scriptures. Not sure on that though, do you happen to know?
All I can say Seth, is I am praying for you and the other LDS out there who have been misled in their beliefs about God's word.
When I read the Bible from cover to cover, I read with a sincere desire to really know who Jesus is and was. It was life changing Seth. I can only hope and pray that my LDS loved ones will one day do the same. Like I mentioned earlier, my husband does not read the Bible with sincerity. He reads it to pick it apart pretty much, and so no of course he doesn't regard it the same way Christians do. I believe that is a direct result of the indoctrination he has received as a Mormon.
My prayers go out to you,
gloria
I wasn't being sarcastic when I said I don't believe the Bible died on the cross for me. I meant it.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible didn't atone for my sins. Jesus did. And I think the tendency toward biblioloatry is a very pervasive and dangerous one for people who hew to Biblical inerrancy.
I worship a living God. Not one contained in a book - however nice that book may be.
Seth,
ReplyDeleteI am interested to know if you believe the LDS prophet, current living prophet carries more weight than scripture does. That may explain or help me to understand your beliefs.
You mentioned that it is a very dangerous thing for Christians to view the Bible as without error - or "pure" as the Bible states. Why do you feel this way, seth?
For me personally, I found it deeply confusing to have conflicting teachings to understand when I was LDS. There was the 'current' prophet and then there was the past prophets, and I was taught the current prophet's counsel out weighs the prior prophet. There is also many doctrines that were taught in the past that have been pretty much laid aside today in mainline mormonism. To me , seth that is confusing.
I appreciate the fact that as a Christian the final word is God's word found in the Bible. I can read the bible cover to cover and I know that next year or 50 yrs from now it will not be changed or thrown by the way side by a more "current" thinking or teaching.
I guess that is one of the things I found so very attractive with biblical Christianity -- the fact that Christians believe God does not change. He is the same today tomorrow and forever and that His word can be trusted and will not change because circumstances in our world have changed.
To me, that gives me a deep sense of stability and assurance -- something I did not have in the LDS church with the LDS paradigm of "continuing revelatin".
How in the heck does one keep all those LDS docrtrines strait and what you believe today and is taught today in the LDS church may very well be null and void in 50 yrs. Is that not concerning to you?
Kind regards,
gloria
quite frankly, the idea of "errors" in the Bible are used by every charlatan out there to deny what God has said so they can replace His Word with their own doctrines. Started way back when a snake asked Eve "Has God really said?" and not much has changed. The mormon church has to deny the validity of the Bible, because a) it teaches truths that are opposed to mormonism and b) the doubts they try to raise make mormons dependent on the "prophet" to tell them what to think.
ReplyDeleteSeth, your argument makes little sense. So you say that you think that God, out of honor for our "free will", allowed errors in the Bible. Whatever for? How does it help "free will" to give us inconsistent records? Just to add a degree of difficulty, like being lost sinners is not a barrier enough?
Then you launch into a diatribe about Christ saving you, not a book. All true but without the Bible you don't know anything about Christ or the crosss and are left with a god out of the imagination of mankind. Whether a golden calf or the image of God concocted by Joseph Smith, and idol is an idol.
Arthur, I've read a sampling of your blog posts before. I've seen your comments elsewhere. And I can honestly say, I'm not really interested in having a conversation with you.
ReplyDeletegloria,
I consider inerrancy dangerous - no matter who or what it is directed at. I don't consider the Bible inerrant, I don't consider the Book of Mormon inerrant, I don't consider Joseph Smith inerrant, and I don't consider the living prophet inerrant.
I don't believe in inerrancy - period.
My own religion is taken from a hierarchy of sources and everything has to be taken as a whole, with utmost attention paid to context.
Do I prize the authority of the prophet over the authority of the Bible? Sometimes, yes.
For instance, I tend to agree with modern prophets that adultresses and homosexuals should not be stoned to death.
Modern prophet wins. Bible loses.
On the other hand, when a Mormon general authority suggests that we have to earn our way into heaven by sheer merit, I view all our authoritative scripture together, apply my own reasoning to it, and conclude that he probably is either incorrect on this limited point, or is not being taken in the proper context.
Scripture wins. Prophet loses.
Does this mean I end up with a religion after my own mind.
Yeah, it does.
So what?
" Does this mean I end up with a religion after my own mind. Yeah it does."
ReplyDeleteDear Seth,
I appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts and where your stand with the Bible. Truly I do. I understand that much of what you believe has been shaped by the LDS teachings.
My concern truly Seth lies in the fact that a religion after one's own mind is not what saves. That is my concern. That is my concern with the LDS faith and thus the reason for this blog -- it's not about religion, it's about a personal and saving relationship thru Christ our Lord. If one basis truth on their "own" beliefs and perceptions vs. what God has declared , that for me Seth is very dangerous.....because your eternal soul lies in danger. Danger of being eternally seperate from God. That is my concern.
I also want to say that I believe your thoughts are not only normal for LDS but for non believers in general. Most folks have their "own" brand of religion, and they tend to be satisified with that.
My concern and I know the concern that God has is for the welfare of the soul. For God does not want one soul to perish.
Simply put, I am concerned about your eternal welfare, seth.
I will be praying for you today. I am heading off to church right now and I'll be sure to include you in prayers that God may reveal Himself to you in such a powerful way, that it will literally knock your socks off.
That's precisely what He did for me.
Kind regards for a lovely day,
gloria
"My concern truly Seth lies in the fact that a religion after one's own mind is not what saves."
ReplyDeleteUnless it happens to be right.
" Unless it happens to be right"
ReplyDeleteSeth,
With all due respect and I mean this sincerely, and I don't want to come across as being cold or unkind in any way .... but Seth, Jesus did not preach a religion as the means of salvation. He preached that HE IS THE WAY. Not a church , not a religion , but Himself. Jesus never ever mentioned the word religion. He said :
He is the bread of life
He is the living waters
He is the I AM
He is the beginning and the end
He is the alpha and omega
He is the truth
He is the way
He is the life
He is the sheperd
He is the door ( keeper)
Truly, Seth Jesus preached Himself.
He didn't ever preach a religion or denomination or church as the means to gain eternal life.
Please seth, I pray and beg you to consider really deeply consider what I am saying.
As I mentioned before, my concern lies in your eternal well being. Just the thought of one soul perishing, just breaks my heart.
Please consider that your assurance most definately does not rest in a church, now matter how great or nice that church may be...it's not about a church... it's about what Jesus did to save you.
Please consider that.
I will continue to lift you up in prayer,
Gloria
So sorry to interrupt the dialogue. I think both you, Gloria, and you, Seth, have interesting things to say (all over the blogosphere).
ReplyDeleteAs a United Methodist, I subscribe to a church that proclaims the inerrancy of the Bible. The UM church defines "inerrancy" as meaning that the Bible tells us all we need to know about salvation.
I think I can accept this (in my own iberal way), and I've certainly been finding more value in the Bible as I focus on studying it more. However, I worked in national politics for years, and I just don't trust humans. At all. I've seen the way that stories are twisted, the ways that histories are twisted, and the ways that the masses are led as blindly as sheep following Big Brother, purely based on who controls the source of information. People are pretty terrible, and they're horribly self-serving.
So my struggle comes from knowing that humans choose to corrupt the things they know confer power. The Bible--and religion--are and were enormously powerful, and I can't help but question if and when the Word of God may have been twisted by us humans. Do I believe that God could stop such a thing? Of course. But God lets terrible things--faith-destroying things--happen all the time, so I have to wonder.
(This message brought to you by a law student who has been in a quasi-epistemological crisis for the past year.)
Hi, whitney. Thank you so much for stopping by my blog and for sharing what is on your heart. I hear you. You are so right -- we humans are terrible flawed, are we not?! No doubt about that. It sounds like you have seen some pretty ugly things. I can believe that. Especially when it concerns politics. I have come to the conclusion that both parties are really just using the American public to suit their agendas... and we are being led blindly by the media by politicians down the beaten path.
ReplyDeleteI do want to say that even though I believe in the absolute depravity of mankind, I also believe that God still sits on the throne. He is still an awesome, stop me dead in my tracks, kind of God. The Bible declares that & I happen to agree. Men are hopelessly falling short, and our Great God still rules and reigns. My hope rests in God and not in mankind. I guess that is why I still hold on to hope , Whitney. Hope that God is still in the miracle business. That God still sits on the throne no matter who sits in the white house...... there is still hope and there is still God. So, most days I wake up and sing.
NOt all days, but most days.
Thanks for sharing your heart whitney, and if you don't mind , I would really love to pray for you as you figure out all this "stuff".
God bless!!
gloria
Mormon doctrine doesn't state that our salvation resides in a Church either gloria.
ReplyDeleteWe have a Church because Jesus wanted us to have one. That's it.
Hi,seth! Thanks for taking time to stop by and share.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, Seth I disagree with you on your statement you left. Exaltation ( eternal life with Heavenly Father) according to the LDS is dependent upon obedience to the laws and ordinances of the LDS church. Without the temple sealing and endowment, Seth a person, according to the doctrines of Mormonism can not enter the "celestial" kingdom or kingdom where God lives and dwells without the ordinances of the Mormon Church.
In comparison, Christians ( for the most part, and there are some who digress!) boldly proclaim that it is the work of JESUS, and HIS blood that secures a seat at the wedding feast , or grants us the Kingdom of God to live with Him forever.
The Bible does not declare a religious membership as means to eternal life with God, I believe the LDS Church does. ( and much more than just the initial membership inititian of baptism)
As always, it's nice to hear from you seth.
Kind regards,
gloria
P.S. Seth - I re-read your comment and I agree that the mormon definition of "salvation" that means general salvation is not dependent upon religion. I am not speaking about 'general salvation' according to the mormons, but "eternal life" defined as " exaltation" by the LDS.
ReplyDeleteAs we both know there is a difference, for the LDS between salvation and eternal life or exaltation.
Kind regards,
gloria
If my dad has a candy bar, and he tells me to go do my homework and then he'll give me the candy bar...
ReplyDeleteWho was the source of the candy bar?
My homework? Or my dad?
Nice try seth , what are you really trying to get at? Speak plainly please. My husband pulls these all the time on me. Doesn't work. :)
ReplyDeleteKind regards,
gloria
Jesus is the source for Mormons. Not the Church. That's my point.
ReplyDeleteSeth,
ReplyDeleteIf JESUS truly is the "source" of salvation and eternal life for you and other mormons than I say HALLELUJAH!!!
Do you think other LDS believe that way too?
I ask because if it is true that the LDS Church officially believes that Jesus is the WAY, then there would be no need for LDS missionaries to preach the mormon gospel to Christians who have placed their trust in jesus already. Correct? The LDS missionaries should then be focused on reaching the truly lost, those who don't know Jesus and have not professed Him or been born again.
Whatcha think?
Gloria
Wow! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading the dialogue/debate between you and Seth. I stumbled upon your blog because I was curious about Mormon wedding vows. I am not a mormon, but one of my best friends is, and her sister was recently married in a temple ceremony. My friend and I pretty much keep our "religion" off the table because I suspect we are both "suspect" of the other's! Notwithstanding, I love her dearly, as she does me, and we have a great relationship. Who knows, maybe she prays for me as a Catholic? I pray for her and her family to know the one true God, His son Jesus and to allow the Holy Spirit to intercede for her. They are some of the best people I know. I'm not perfect, but I am saved by the Grace of God and the blood of Jesus Christ! Perhaps someday my heart and mind will open enough to receive what is there waiting for me in the bible. I read it, have attended many protestant bible studies, which I have thoroughly enjoyed and from which I have received many blessings, but I am still "not there" as far as the literal understanding of so much of what is the bible. But, as a believer, I do believe it to be the truth and the inspired Word of God, inerrant in every way. Keep up the good blogging, Gloria. It was a pleasure to meet you here!
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